Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

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PJE
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Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by PJE »

A few years ago I created a thread about the Ligier JS 11/15 in which I believe James brought up many of the differences between the Ligier JS 11 and the Ligier JS 11/15.
Unfortunately, it seems to have been deleted because of space concerns. As I recall a big difference between the two cars besides the bodywork was the rear suspension and possibly the transaxle
I’ve found some additional photos since then and I’m more confused than ever. I always thought that the JS 11/15 was the only car that ran with no front wings and an engine cover. However, This photo of Didier Proni winning (the 1980 British Grand Prix?) shows what I think is a JS 11 while this other photo shows what I believe is a JS 11/15.
Please steer me straight as to what car is what in these photos, and where the JS 11 stopped and the JS 11/15 began. :?

Paul Erlendson
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Re: Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by indycals »

My impression was the JS11 always had the open engine. But I'm not an expert on the JS11.
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Re: Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by jimbo »

A very confusing topic. My book reference says the JS11 was run in 1979 and the JS15 was an updated JS11 run in 1980. There is no reference to an JS 11/15 and in fact the book lists the cars entered in the 1980 races as having the 1979 JS11 chassis serial numbers. :?:
The reference also says the JS15 had a redesigned rear end, new wing profiles, new skirt system, and revised rear suspension and yet when I look at many pictures from the races (not restored cars) from both 1979 and 1980, I don't see any difference between the two. However the changes may have been very subtle in appearance.
The reference does mention that a new "Williams-style" engine cover was used at the French G.P. in 1980, but nothing about what was used for an engine cover in 1980 prior to that race. Every one of my pictures shows the 1979 JS 11s with no engine cover.
Can someone shed more light on this?
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Re: Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by js1115 »

Hi,
JS11 was run in 1979 with a front wing (most of the races) and no engine cover.
Ligier stated the 1890 season with the 1979's car. In the first part of the season, an engine cover was fitted to the body.
At the french GP, the JS11/15 raced for the fist time (if my souvenirs are good...). It was an huge evolution of the JS11 model, so it was named 11/15 with respect to the deep technical changes. Most of the aerodynamic was revised. The upper part of the fuel tank was enlarged and a "williams FW07 like" rollbar cover was designed. The side of the cockpit were less inclined. The engine cover was also of a new type. The wing profile which gave the ground effect was revised. The shape of the side pannels of the sidepods were also different from the former JS11. All these improvements gave a more efficient wingcar and there was no more interest of using a front wing. At the british GP, The ligier team adopted larger front wheels (15" (or 14"?) instead of 13").
That's all i remeber ....
Jean-Paul
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Re: Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by JamesB »

Fortunately an easy one to answer :)
Luckily, what we could call my first milk regarding F1 was the excellent Gerard Flocon's book LES GRANDS PRIX based on 1980 season.
Well, the thing is easy: JS11 throughout 1979, JS11/15 throughout 1980. E basta! ;-)
Don't be fooled by the lowered fuel tank lower, the rims, or even the engine cover.
What REALLY differenciates both cars is the season... and something more.
Let's see:
-Yes different rear axle. Basically the rear suspension concept is much the same, but brakes went outside, fars from differential, on the 11/15. That's it, inside the wheels. In fact, All the suspension is the same, simply the axles are a bit longer and the discs, located outside the uprights are covered by a different rim.
-Different sidepods. They end before rear wheels, a la Lotus 78, leaving the exhausts uncovered. Longer, less curved, and covering flattened layout of exhausts on teh 11/15. Similar to FW07. All that, seen from underneath: because, from above, all looks much the same.
-Yes engine cover, it leaves seen the DFV camcovers on the 11, covered on the 11/15. There's one exception: in 1980 South african GP, cars started with JS11's engine covers. That might lead to the wrong idea that JS11 raced sometimes in 1980 (there was one as a T car in Argentina though)
-And the most important feature. The nose. Well, the area where the 25 or 26 number goes, is clearly seen in ALL 1980 pics as flush, same level that the suspension fairings external edges. This is a very characteristical feature that gives the car a very sharp look seen from the front and that accentuates the low nose effect, and somethinh I particularly like, case you hadn't noticed ;-)
Obviously that's not like that on the Tamiya model, where central section is clearly higher than external, and has not an easy fix (chassis is tightly underneath), because also the nose cone is too high, the suspension fairings too thick and they lack an inclined lower face. This... for the 1980 car, the JS11/15. Because for the JS11 (1979) I'd say it's more or less accurate. I have the suspicion that the car was "flattened" around mid 1979, but I am not sure, I'll have to investigate. The Heller 1/12 car has also this, but if you fill the longitudinal sinks that separate center from outsides, the think is fixed.

-And now, accessorial features:

-Wings: different config, with very slim ones used at South Africa (and maybe some others high speed tracks), high downforce ones for Monaco and Brands, and generally two element ones. The intricated wing supports were similar to the 1979 ones, but simpler.
Yes No front wings in quite a lot of tracks, I can check if needed.

-Fuel tank cover: yes, was changed at French GP and kept. Not only is lower and rounded: also the white section of cockpit sides, that is a seen surface of the fuel tank on the JS11 and JS11/15 till before France, with the low cover this section is included in the cockpit bodywork... as usual in those days' cars.

-Rims... Varied. Black 13" three spoke (I think) dymag fronts until France, Chrome 15" of varied brands since Brands, after Jones' 15" french victory. First Gotti, then Campagnollo (or the contrary, I should check) and generally 6 spoke.
Rear ones changed less: 13" always, diffferent brands and I think that always chrome, but might be black at season start...

-Last but not least, Sidepod plip ups, they were bigger or smaller depending on downforce requirements. That was made with rather unelegant aluminum palte add-ons, more or less acceptable for upper surface, uglily riveted seen from underneath. Also they sometimes had small profiles that came from the underneath of sidepod, sometimes not. External and inner fins also changed sizes.

-More details: Yes skirts were different, but hard to spot! and most noticeably, the swap from rounded GITANES to italic GITANES on sidepods. Rest of GITANES on the car remained unchanged (!!!)
Hope this all helps...

ED: while I was writting this post, good old JP wrote his: don't be fouled by his nick or the fact of being french :lol: :lol: I am more acurate, it's not me or my memory. IOt's just Flocon's book and GPI :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by LotusEater »

Didier did not win the 1980 British GP, but was on pole. He pitted twice in the race with a puncture, which may be that picture with his hand raised as he heads to the pits. Does the front left look a little soft?

[edit] Laffite's crash (same problem with cracked wheels/puncture) is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vtdr9sWx7E
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Re: Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by PJE »

Thanks all. I got excited about the possibility of doing a conversion the other day when I found this sheet on EBay. When I get it, I’ll scan it, and along with Tamiya drawings, bring them both into AutoCad. Maybe then, I can decide if a conversion is practical.
James, your thoughts on the look of the nose is interesting, as I’ve spent years thinking that the 1980 JS 11/15 was a better looking car than the 1979 JS 11. I always thought that it was the look of the covered engine and the lack of front wings. I had not noticed the differences in the noses. I hope that this drawing of the JS 11/15 will be accurate enough for me to see where the actual differences are.

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Re: Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by LotusEater »

From what I can find it looks like Didier drove a T car in practice #JS11-01 (which I think may be that first picture) and #JS11-04 in the race - the second picture. The difference being the shape of bodywork behind the drivers head and the wheels. Laffite drove #JS11-03 in the race which has the same bodywork and wheels as #JS11-04.


http://www.racingsportscars.com/f1/Bran ... photo.html
http://www.racingsportscars.com/f1/1980 ... 3f-025.jpg - Didier in the race
http://www.racingsportscars.com/f1/1980 ... 3f-026.jpg - Laffite in the race

http://www.flickr.com/photos/antsphoto/2304984286/ - certainly a practice session
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Re: Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by JamesB »

Yep, you are right. Well... more or less.
France: Laffite, 11/15-02. Pironi, 11/15-04. T car, 11/15-01
Britain: Laffite, 11/15-03. Pironi, 11/15-04. T car, 11/15-01
Ger/Aus: Laffite, 11/15-05. Pironi, 11/15-02. T car, 11/15-04

Yes it's likely that they had not enough low bodies for all cars, and in Brands, Didier was using the T car with 13" rims, probably to compare.
BTW: 15" rims were GOTTI, 5 spoke at the front, 6 spokes rear (much the same as RE20's ones), and then they switched to Campagnollo, but later speedline.... but in 1981!! The comment I read in GPI is from '81 season. Seemingly Ligier raced the reminder of 1980 with the GOTTIs.
Oh, yes: at the Ricard, also debuted a CF fuel tank.
Fast before I am back to my regular activities, here you have the comparison between noses, all from 1979. Please note that early season nose has the "central step" and much horizontal suspension fairings. Then on the secon pic, see the central section is flush with suspension fairings, whose external edges are even a bit haigher than central section wher number goes, and the lower surfaces of which show a steep profile, higher extarnally, giving a sharper shape, nicer too. First pic is from Argentina, second from Silverstone. Now if some old glory who is fortunate enough to have the 1979 GPI's could check if there's any mention, mid season, of such a change?
Thanks in advance.

James
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Re: Ligier Ford JS11 - JS11/15

Post by bossy122 »

F1 Modeling volume 19 has a really nice 4 page spread about this exact subject!
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